Christ's 'forgiveness' in the the Lord's Prayer is the petition to avoid hatred. Hatred, once activated, has no bottom. It circles back and destroys the person in the throes of their hating. Justice is the "Sleeping Giant" waking up after Pearl Harbor and eliminating an existential threat, just as Israel needs to eliminate the killers of October 7th. Being human and flawed, leaders and soldiers may slip into hating, but our Western traditions and prayers continually pull us back from the all-consuming nature of hatred so that we stay committed to the aggressive, clear-eyed path of justice.
Absolutely agree that Israel & the world must eliminate the existential threat of Hamas and the need to stay committed to the aggressive, clear-eyed path of justice to accomplish this necessity.
The needed elimination of Hamas could be done and should be done without hatred.
But, the elimination of Hamas should be done and must be done.
Hatred need not enter the equation. Forgiveness certainly should not.
We agree: eliminate Hamas for the sake of justice!
The point of forgiveness is to bring internal peace to the one who has been wronged. It’s that simple. Doesn’t mean one should not still seek Justice for wrongs and work to eliminate a threat to safety.
I am glad you at least realize that Hamas & the Gestapo (the intelligence agency for Nazi Germany) are comparable in their genocidal goal of killing all the Jews. But to claim the Gestapo is an easy case - shows that there is a major disconnect...
Remembering Elie Wiesel On Hatred, Anger and Forgiveness ...
At the 1993 Dinner of the American and International Societies for Yad Vashem dinner, Wiesel honed in on the organization's raison d'etre: “Memory. Forgiveness. Anger! I am for forgiveness but…will never forgive the enemies who killed our people." What is your basis for questioning Eli Wiesel and his life's work?
What is your experience with the Gestapo/Hamas?
Your advocating forgiveness means that you advocate excusing/ignoring their murdering/gang-raping/beheadings/kidnappings, etc
FIRST, STOP HAMAS. Hamas is killing Jews. Not years/decades ago - but now. Hamas wants to kill Jews every day. Today. Tomorrow. every day that they can. You want to forgive yesterday's murders and then what? Then forgive tomorrow's murders, and then the next days' murders? You are setting up a full time job for the rest of your life - forgiving every new massacre/killing...
Do you not see how that is twisted?
Enough with forgiveness/cheering them on or excusing their actions.
STOP HAMAS.
STOP HAMAS FROM KILLING.
DEMAND HAMAS RELEASE THE HOSTAGES.
Use your heart for compassion of the Hamas victims not for the Hamas perpetrators.
Use the hatred/disgust with Murderers to bring Justice and to Forever Stop Hamas and Jew-killers...
Because, as you wrote -- you keep seeking to forgive/pardon the actual KILLERS/MASS MURDERERS not even the "civilians supporting Hamas/the Gestapo... & in Hamas case - they have not yet been defeated, though they should be. Shockingly, you are advocating to forgive active murderers, as opposed to stopping their killing...
SUPPORT WHAT IS RIGHT.
STOP HAMAS KILLING!
HOLD ONTO COMPASSION FOR THE VICTIMS!
HAVE A HEART!
First, stop Hamas, bring Hamas to justice, prevent Hamas and all others from killing Jews, fully tend to the victims' needs with real compassion, & then worry about the hatred that exists for the mass murders of Jews. Still will not be forgiven - but perhaps you will see that they should not be, & you should not be seeking to aid/comfort Hamas... (Indeed, I believe they would kill you for your religious beliefs...)
Perhaps, based on your writings, it is you have an unstated/unresolved hatred that needs to be excised form your heart. If so, you need to change your path... For the road you are on is not going to get you to a pure/whole heart...
Respectfully, I disagree & urge you to retract and support Good vs Evil!
1) The Hamas Charter is to kill all the Jews & all the Christians. To do away with civil rights, religious rights, and any other right to exist except under their strict control & rules.
2) Hamas still wants to kill all the Jews; & in fact is still firing missiles at innocent civilians.
3) Hamas still has hostages (including babies).
4) Hamas leadership is hiding while using Palestinians as shields.
I could go on… BUT
WITHOUT REPENTANCE THERE CAN BE NO FORGIVENESS!
Moreover, you appear to be conflating all Palestinians/Gazans with Hamas. Those people that choose (a) to become Hamas, or (b) to support Hamas — are (a) trying to actually commit, or (b) supporting those trying to commit the genocide of Jews. Hence Hamas gleefully murders babies, beheads civilians, gang-rapes women, kidnaps civilians (children). Hatred & Darkness are NOT to be forgiven.
Hamas/Evil needs to be ended so the Light may be seen.
Those few Palestinians who have not been corrupted by the non-stop propaganda of Hamas/Iran/PA/UNRWA/Hezbollah to kill all from the River to the Sea and to reconquer any and all land that once under Islam control - should be the few aided. NOT HAMAS!
BUT to forgive those who actively choose to be Evil & Killers — those who choose to be Hamas - is morally wrong & indefensible.
To tell those still being killed/held hostage/targeted to forgive those doing these deeds is WRONG!
Do you know what they have experienced? Who are you to forgive one that has harmed another??
It is especially wrong to be on the outside (for now, because they will be coming for you too) to preach forgiveness. You are advocating for Hamas to continue.
Hamas is an organization established (per its Charter) to kill, not to be a positive force. It is no coincidence that the term Hamas is used at Genesis 6:11 (& elsewhere in the Bible) as the term for Evil.
First, STOP THE EVIL. Stop Hamas - demand their surrender and the release of their hostages so that the innocent may be free of Hamas, & peace has a chance.
Then use your sympathy/empathy for the victims in Israel and help them. In fact, do that now!
Then sympathize and help Palestinians who truly want to live in peace (& did not elect nor support Hamas). Do this by changing their government, educational system , ending UNRWA, stopping Imans & others from preaching hate & death…
STOP THE KILLING OF JEWS & others.
Then & only after the Evil/Hamas has ended, the evil support/creating system is destroyed, then perhaps consider what your feelings should be for those few that were led astray, as opposed to those who actively chose Evil/Hamas over Good.
Do not help Evil to spread...
TAKE A STAND! Stand with Israel against Hamas/Evil.
Hi Steve--I purposefully picked Hamas as a "hard case," but I could have used the Gestapo or the KGB as an example. The point was to show how difficult it can be to forgive your enemy, especially if they are as evil as Hamas. It's really not about whether they are repentant but how we cannot hold onto that hatred in our heart. We need to let it go....and forgive.
It is good that you recognize the similarity of the Gestapo & Hamas - 2 organizations out to commit the genocide of the Jews.
But - for you to describe the Gestapo (again not Germans in general) as an "easy case" demonstrates a major disconnect.
Asking for forgiveness is the responsibility of every sinner, and accepting it the obligation of each victim, Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel told an overflow crowd at Snow College. 5/24/2006
I would add in a requirement that the sinner first repent before even asking.
However, for you (a non-victim) to preach that others should forgive killers is in essence to make the killers' job easier.
Would you forgive Hamas for the prior murders?
& then when Hamas continues to kilwill you again forgive them?
& then the day after that?
&then the day after that?
Will this continue until Hamas kills you for having religious beliefs being different/contrary to theirs?
You are preaching forgiveness/mercy - which only leads to more mass murders...
WHY NOT:
STOP HAMAS
USE YOUR HEART TO CARE FOR THE HAMAS VICTIMS - THOSE KIDNAPPED, THOSE RAPED,
AND THOSE WHOSE FAMILY MEMBERS WERE KILLED.
USE YOUR HEART TO PREVENT FUTURE KILLINGS OF JEWS.
USE YOUR HEART TO DISMANTLE THE KILLING MACHINE -THE PROPAGANDA MACHINES
THAT SAY TO KILL JEWS - THE ONE OPERATING IN MOSQUES, UNRWA SCHOOLS,
PALESTINIAN MEDIA, CONTROLLED BY IRAN/HAMAS/PA/HEZBOLLAH....
& THEN - WHEN YOU HAVE SUCCESSFULLY STOPPED THE EVIL, IF YOU STILL SENSE THE NEED FOR SOMEONE TO FORGIVE THE KILLERS GO AND ASK THE VICTIMS TO CONSIDER FORGIVING... BUT TO DO SO WHILE THE KILLING CONTINUES IS INHUMANE
But first, USE YOUR HEART TO HELP THE INNOCENT ONES TARGETED BY JEW-HATE.
PRIORITIZE YOUR ACTIONS - OR MORE IMPORTANTLY, THE NEEDS OF THE INNOCENT.
Christ's 'forgiveness' in the the Lord's Prayer is the petition to avoid hatred. Hatred, once activated, has no bottom. It circles back and destroys the person in the throes of their hating. Justice is the "Sleeping Giant" waking up after Pearl Harbor and eliminating an existential threat, just as Israel needs to eliminate the killers of October 7th. Being human and flawed, leaders and soldiers may slip into hating, but our Western traditions and prayers continually pull us back from the all-consuming nature of hatred so that we stay committed to the aggressive, clear-eyed path of justice.
Absolutely agree that Israel & the world must eliminate the existential threat of Hamas and the need to stay committed to the aggressive, clear-eyed path of justice to accomplish this necessity.
The needed elimination of Hamas could be done and should be done without hatred.
But, the elimination of Hamas should be done and must be done.
Hatred need not enter the equation. Forgiveness certainly should not.
We agree: eliminate Hamas for the sake of justice!
The point of forgiveness is to bring internal peace to the one who has been wronged. It’s that simple. Doesn’t mean one should not still seek Justice for wrongs and work to eliminate a threat to safety.
I am glad you at least realize that Hamas & the Gestapo (the intelligence agency for Nazi Germany) are comparable in their genocidal goal of killing all the Jews. But to claim the Gestapo is an easy case - shows that there is a major disconnect...
Remembering Elie Wiesel On Hatred, Anger and Forgiveness ...
At the 1993 Dinner of the American and International Societies for Yad Vashem dinner, Wiesel honed in on the organization's raison d'etre: “Memory. Forgiveness. Anger! I am for forgiveness but…will never forgive the enemies who killed our people." What is your basis for questioning Eli Wiesel and his life's work?
What is your experience with the Gestapo/Hamas?
Your advocating forgiveness means that you advocate excusing/ignoring their murdering/gang-raping/beheadings/kidnappings, etc
FIRST, STOP HAMAS. Hamas is killing Jews. Not years/decades ago - but now. Hamas wants to kill Jews every day. Today. Tomorrow. every day that they can. You want to forgive yesterday's murders and then what? Then forgive tomorrow's murders, and then the next days' murders? You are setting up a full time job for the rest of your life - forgiving every new massacre/killing...
Do you not see how that is twisted?
Enough with forgiveness/cheering them on or excusing their actions.
STOP HAMAS.
STOP HAMAS FROM KILLING.
DEMAND HAMAS RELEASE THE HOSTAGES.
Use your heart for compassion of the Hamas victims not for the Hamas perpetrators.
Use the hatred/disgust with Murderers to bring Justice and to Forever Stop Hamas and Jew-killers...
Because, as you wrote -- you keep seeking to forgive/pardon the actual KILLERS/MASS MURDERERS not even the "civilians supporting Hamas/the Gestapo... & in Hamas case - they have not yet been defeated, though they should be. Shockingly, you are advocating to forgive active murderers, as opposed to stopping their killing...
SUPPORT WHAT IS RIGHT.
STOP HAMAS KILLING!
HOLD ONTO COMPASSION FOR THE VICTIMS!
HAVE A HEART!
First, stop Hamas, bring Hamas to justice, prevent Hamas and all others from killing Jews, fully tend to the victims' needs with real compassion, & then worry about the hatred that exists for the mass murders of Jews. Still will not be forgiven - but perhaps you will see that they should not be, & you should not be seeking to aid/comfort Hamas... (Indeed, I believe they would kill you for your religious beliefs...)
Perhaps, based on your writings, it is you have an unstated/unresolved hatred that needs to be excised form your heart. If so, you need to change your path... For the road you are on is not going to get you to a pure/whole heart...
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Respectfully, I disagree & urge you to retract and support Good vs Evil!
1) The Hamas Charter is to kill all the Jews & all the Christians. To do away with civil rights, religious rights, and any other right to exist except under their strict control & rules.
2) Hamas still wants to kill all the Jews; & in fact is still firing missiles at innocent civilians.
3) Hamas still has hostages (including babies).
4) Hamas leadership is hiding while using Palestinians as shields.
I could go on… BUT
WITHOUT REPENTANCE THERE CAN BE NO FORGIVENESS!
Moreover, you appear to be conflating all Palestinians/Gazans with Hamas. Those people that choose (a) to become Hamas, or (b) to support Hamas — are (a) trying to actually commit, or (b) supporting those trying to commit the genocide of Jews. Hence Hamas gleefully murders babies, beheads civilians, gang-rapes women, kidnaps civilians (children). Hatred & Darkness are NOT to be forgiven.
Hamas/Evil needs to be ended so the Light may be seen.
Those few Palestinians who have not been corrupted by the non-stop propaganda of Hamas/Iran/PA/UNRWA/Hezbollah to kill all from the River to the Sea and to reconquer any and all land that once under Islam control - should be the few aided. NOT HAMAS!
BUT to forgive those who actively choose to be Evil & Killers — those who choose to be Hamas - is morally wrong & indefensible.
To tell those still being killed/held hostage/targeted to forgive those doing these deeds is WRONG!
Do you know what they have experienced? Who are you to forgive one that has harmed another??
It is especially wrong to be on the outside (for now, because they will be coming for you too) to preach forgiveness. You are advocating for Hamas to continue.
Hamas is an organization established (per its Charter) to kill, not to be a positive force. It is no coincidence that the term Hamas is used at Genesis 6:11 (& elsewhere in the Bible) as the term for Evil.
First, STOP THE EVIL. Stop Hamas - demand their surrender and the release of their hostages so that the innocent may be free of Hamas, & peace has a chance.
Then use your sympathy/empathy for the victims in Israel and help them. In fact, do that now!
Then sympathize and help Palestinians who truly want to live in peace (& did not elect nor support Hamas). Do this by changing their government, educational system , ending UNRWA, stopping Imans & others from preaching hate & death…
STOP THE KILLING OF JEWS & others.
Then & only after the Evil/Hamas has ended, the evil support/creating system is destroyed, then perhaps consider what your feelings should be for those few that were led astray, as opposed to those who actively chose Evil/Hamas over Good.
Do not help Evil to spread...
TAKE A STAND! Stand with Israel against Hamas/Evil.
Hi Steve--I purposefully picked Hamas as a "hard case," but I could have used the Gestapo or the KGB as an example. The point was to show how difficult it can be to forgive your enemy, especially if they are as evil as Hamas. It's really not about whether they are repentant but how we cannot hold onto that hatred in our heart. We need to let it go....and forgive.
It is good that you recognize the similarity of the Gestapo & Hamas - 2 organizations out to commit the genocide of the Jews.
But - for you to describe the Gestapo (again not Germans in general) as an "easy case" demonstrates a major disconnect.
Asking for forgiveness is the responsibility of every sinner, and accepting it the obligation of each victim, Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel told an overflow crowd at Snow College. 5/24/2006
I would add in a requirement that the sinner first repent before even asking.
However, for you (a non-victim) to preach that others should forgive killers is in essence to make the killers' job easier.
Would you forgive Hamas for the prior murders?
& then when Hamas continues to kilwill you again forgive them?
& then the day after that?
&then the day after that?
Will this continue until Hamas kills you for having religious beliefs being different/contrary to theirs?
You are preaching forgiveness/mercy - which only leads to more mass murders...
WHY NOT:
STOP HAMAS
USE YOUR HEART TO CARE FOR THE HAMAS VICTIMS - THOSE KIDNAPPED, THOSE RAPED,
AND THOSE WHOSE FAMILY MEMBERS WERE KILLED.
USE YOUR HEART TO PREVENT FUTURE KILLINGS OF JEWS.
USE YOUR HEART TO DISMANTLE THE KILLING MACHINE -THE PROPAGANDA MACHINES
THAT SAY TO KILL JEWS - THE ONE OPERATING IN MOSQUES, UNRWA SCHOOLS,
PALESTINIAN MEDIA, CONTROLLED BY IRAN/HAMAS/PA/HEZBOLLAH....
& THEN - WHEN YOU HAVE SUCCESSFULLY STOPPED THE EVIL, IF YOU STILL SENSE THE NEED FOR SOMEONE TO FORGIVE THE KILLERS GO AND ASK THE VICTIMS TO CONSIDER FORGIVING... BUT TO DO SO WHILE THE KILLING CONTINUES IS INHUMANE
But first, USE YOUR HEART TO HELP THE INNOCENT ONES TARGETED BY JEW-HATE.
PRIORITIZE YOUR ACTIONS - OR MORE IMPORTANTLY, THE NEEDS OF THE INNOCENT.